Curse

Lanier · Sep 26, 2010, 04:17 PM // 16:17

In my opinion, what killed pugs the most is the attitude of the playerbase. I used to love pugging when people where more carefree and casual about pugs, but now it seems as though the playerbase that i run into when I pug is all hardcore and elitist. In general, they make a big deal about builds and professions and finishing everything fast. Why would I want to pug when the playerbase is acting like this? As a result, Im now sticking with my heroes and my guildies for the time being.

Jugalo Dano · Sep 26, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

In PvE. no, I don't think so. Players are too spread thin to really pug most of the missions / questing / vanquishing regardless of whether they want to or not. The only times I can remember people title discriminating in PvE was in the early days of DoA people demanding high lightbringer levels.

In PvP, it hasn't helped make pugging easier that's for sure. But Pvp people have always discriminated against each other so much that they effectively push alot of the player base out of pvp anyways, so no it's not the problem their either.

afya · Sep 26, 2010, 04:29 PM // 16:29

hero, pve skills, and HM(yes, HM) killed pug.

people are at the same intelligent level as 5 years ago. they still run bad bars.

However, back in the days, there was no hero to use instead of real men. And since there was no HM, ANET don't need to tune up the skills, bring PVE only skills into the game, wouldn't need to introduce cons. With all those tuned-up skills and cons, ppl ran with guildmates, had some 10mins run, and never bother doing a mission with PUG for 30mins ever.

**cosyfiep** · Sep 26, 2010, 04:51 PM // 16:51

I still pug....see just about as many of them now I as did a few years ago...
I did ALL of the guardian titles with pugs on 5 characters...so saying that titles killed pugs for me gives me the great big "HUH"???????
Without the pug I would not have been able to do many of those. Without the title hunt I would not have even WANTED to do them----

so

HUH????

LifeInfusion · Sep 26, 2010, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Honestly heros "killed" PUGs. Henches were terrible in prophecies and mediocre in Factions. The fact that you had to bring along a hero for some of the Nightfall missions meant this was *forced*.

EoTN PvE skills made it stupid easy to play GW even if you spec your attributes like an idiot (i.e. req8 sword, let's put only 8 attribute ranks and spam seeking blade!). pre-nerf Ursan, for example.

Then PvE skill split made it even more easy to play PvE.

I don't see why there is a fuss about PUGing. Just go to where the zaishen missions are.

I even PUGed with a necro that was doing Iron Mines of Moludune for the first time because he had no one to help him. (He was running lvl 15 minions so I had to give him a suggestion to use Superior Death magic before we finished.)

galbat0rixx · Sep 26, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Heroes killed PUGs, titles killed PUGs, elitists killed PUGs, game mechanics killed PUGs.....the whole game just didn't pan out well for PUGs. I have a preetty limited view as I never played during the 'glory days', but what killed PUG's would seem to be a mixture between people wanting to get everything done as fast and easy as possible, and the fact that heroes can be made to so much more easily roll through pretty much any PvE situation. More to the point, it's sort of come round in a circle, PUGs became less wanted, so there were less of them, so people didn't PUG so much, so there were less of them, so loads of people got bored and quit, so nobody even bothers to try any more.

As for whether I want titles in GW2, that's still a yes, though I hope they make some funner ones to get, though that is really up to how much better they can make the game mechanics, I mean even Vanquisher could be a fun title if the combat was still enjoyable and it wasn't just as simple as blasting through with two discorway teams, which will not be the case in GW2, they aren't gonna make all the same mistakes twice, and the more controlled build system will hopefully mean it's more about how you play, than what you play as.

In PvP though, you could easily say titles killed a lot of the gameplay. I always had a vague hope to play a bit of HA, but generally found too many elitists and people only wanting high titled players to go with, so I was mostly ignored. God I can't wait for GW2.

Tender Care · Sep 26, 2010, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Everytime i go to TOA I lol so much seeing ppl: lfg uwsc show stones 50+ etc etc.....

Actually titles did not kill grouping, the concept of Speed Clear did it....UW SC or FoW SC are not SC are FARMING....XD

What killed some kind of PUGing is this concept of fast farm of Elite areas, done only for farming rare weapons/materials.....

What killed Gw is RARE's fever.....everyone has his BDS, his VS, his Crystalline etc etc...it's just fashion. Nobody group for areas like UW/FOW cos they just want the final chest and not the fun of playing...

I've never blamed someone for his low title or expirience...but most ppl do it.

Reverend Dr · Sep 26, 2010, 06:55 PM // 18:55

There is one and only one reason why PuGs died in this game: This game doesn't force you to group.

The correct term here is in fact force. FFXI had plenty of pugs for all sorts of things, but in that game you needed a PuG for absolutely everything.

It really isn't about providing 'benefits' to grouping. Until there is a point that play cannot proceed without grouping, then PuG's are going to disappear. The only reason that PuGs existed in this game to begin with was that people mistakenly thought that they needed to group.

Chthon · Sep 26, 2010, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Eh...

The fundamental game design killed PUGs.

1. A-net wants to make the game fun.

2. "Fun" in the context of a video game usually means something that presents a challenge the player can eventually surmount. Something so easy it presents no challenge is rarely fun; nor is something so hard you have no chance of ever prevailing.

3. There's a limited number of ways to create this sort of challenge. Chief among them are:
A. The random factor. Getting lucky feels fun. Everyone likes winning the lottery. But place too much weight on randomness and the difficulty feels forced or "cheesy." GW features randomness heavily in the loot system, but only sparsely in the combat system.
B. Erect a finger-twitching "wall of execution" between what the player wants their character to do and what the character does. Climbing over the wall of execution is fun. Successfully executing Akuma's raging demon or Zangeif's 2x-360 throw in Street Fighter gives a great feeling of accomplishment. But GW isn't Street Fighter. Network latency and synchronization problems make that level of execution impossible for a large portion of the player base. Execution matters very little (as compared to something like Street Fighter) in GW PvE, and not terribly much in PvP either. (Though I would say that execution matters a bit too much for PvP given the technological issues.)
C. Give them an endurance test. Finishing a marathon feels great. See UW & Dhuum. GW generally stays away from this sort of challenge in an attempt to stay friendly to casual players.
D. Erect a "wall of complexity" that makes it difficult to ascertain the optimal course of action. Figuring out the game is the challenge. This is what the GW devs chose as the main source of challenge for their game. Figuring out which skills are best to bring and which skills are the best to use at a given moment is a problem that turns out to be (a) almost impossible to mathematically model completely, and (b) sensitive to some inputs that are very hard to measure. Coming up with the best approximations to answer those problems is a daunting challenge to the player.

4. And here's where we run into trouble. I turns out that (a) the intelligence and logical/mathematical ability and education required to climb the wall of complexity vary greatly across the player base, and (b) the level of motivation to even attempt the inquiry in the first place also varies greatly across the player base. This leaves us with, on the one hand, a player of mental aptitude and motivation crunching numbers to see whether IatS, Dodge This, or BuH best improves the performance of a particular build, and, on the other hand, a player of not so much mental aptitude, nor motivation, who does not understand why his Sever Artery + Crystal Wave warrior is not a great build, and doesn't really care to think about it anyway. How do you make PvE challenging for one without making it either too easy or impossible for the other?

5. A major part of a-net's best "solution" is to split up the player base between NM and HM/elite areas. The difficulty in NM appears to be set to offer a challenge to the 30th* percentile or so, while HM/elite areas are more tuned for the around 85th* percentile. (* These numbers are pulled out of my butt for demonstrative purposes. They are simply my best estimates made from observing the player base.)

6. Unfortunately, NM still has some 30% of the people who just fail (actually more because the top end is off playing HM/elite areas) and HM/elite areas have a fair percentage of people who just fail (far less than 85%, though, since much of the bottom end does stay in NM).

7. Now, let's pick up where Burst Cancel started: People don't like it when their groups fail. Usually it's a waste of time. Sometimes you can learn something when you fail, or get a good laugh, or get a good drop along the way. But usually, it's just a waste of time. Especially when it's entirely someone else's fault.

8. So, people try to filter the players who aren't up to the content out of their teams.

9. The difficulty and hassle of doing this filtering leads people to often just seek out known-quantity teammates (guild/alliance members, f-list people, heroes, hench) rather than bother with filtering.

10. And that is what kills PUGs.

To summarize, the main problem is that a-net chose a mechanism for delivering challenge that spreads the player base along too broad a spectrum, which results in too many players being too bad at the game (or, looking at it another way, the game being too hard for too many players) no matter where the difficulty level is set.

Ironically, PUGs suffer not because of titles/stones/etc., but because titles/stones/etc. are not a good enough indicator of someone's ability to finish certain content. For instance, I am very wary about taking PUG people into UW, but I would not be so wary if a stone really meant that you finished UW HM and contributed meaningfully to the team (as opposed to buying the stone, or piggybacking on a SC team without contributing, or struggling through NM in 4hr with 8 full consets).

Of course, this would not do anything to help the vocal subset of people who complain that PUGs are dying because they rely on PUGs to carry them through content that is beyond their ability to otherwise finish. The only thing (aside from simply getting better at the game) that could make PUGs less "dead" for this subset would be a complete redesign that brought the difficulty level down.

*lemming* · Sep 26, 2010, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Elitism is a terrible excuse for lack of PvP success.

ruk1a · Sep 26, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

I sure think so. I think titles enabled players to discriminate and lock each other out of PvP, and even PvE [see: Elitism]. From requiring a champion title for GvG to summoning stones for UW/FoW, titles have killed the spirit of playing with each other for the remainder of the game's life cycle.

What're your thoughts on titles? Do you want them to exist in Guild Wars 2?

Note: Be careful not to flame!

PUGs suck anyways, i mean seriously PUGs are terrible in every game, why would you even want them? from personal experience i've found that being in a guild with well organized players with team speak and what not is far more profitable than PUGing. who wants some random that doesn't even know elite skills exist? sure noobs should be taught how to play but again, that's what guilds are for... Guild......Wars......ahemm. titles in guild wars is kinda like gear score in WoW, will always have a love/hate relationship. usually the baddies hate it and the elitists love it, then there's a group in between that just doesn't care because they're in a good guild.

Sarevok Thordin · Sep 26, 2010, 08:42 PM // 20:42

What killed PuGing is not titles...it's purely a mix of player mentalities that come together, and most of it is really stupid.

1. Control - People feel other people will screw them up or more to the point take some control of the mission outcome away from them. The player doesn't want to let others have a chance to goof up the mission because they just randomly picked them up in an outpost, they'll keep themselves in full control.

2. Time wasting - Because of the instanced nature of the game, if you die in certain areas or too much, you can essentially render the hour or so you spent in the instance worthless. People don't like repeating things that take an hour onwards. We then come back to point 1.

3. A hero does as they are told - Self explanitary, they'll use whatever equipment you want them to, what skillbar they want them to, what SKILLS and WHEN to use them, hell as an added bonus to heroes, their twitch skill ability is amazing, and minion bomber builders are only doable effectively on heroes.

4. Some players just suck - Do you want to pug with a Warrior whose idea of a build involves flare spam? Yes I've seen it happen folks, and repeating missions because of it isn't funny. There is creative and then there is just plain stupidity that doesn't understand complimenting the primary class.

5. Conflict of Interest - I WANNA DO HM, I WANNA VANQUISH, I WANNA GET THE MONUMENT, I JUST WANNA GET THROUGH THE GAME. Running 2k plz. There is too many things that will divide the players, thus they just do it all themselves and be in control.

To name but a few, I'm just tired right now tho.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Sep 26, 2010, 09:27 PM // 21:27

i agree with alot of points here

game got "killed" by:

- elitism
- heroes (yes, even someone who wants 7 hero teams can say that)
- not only wanting the game being completed for 100% on NM and HM (and perfectly, as it is now), but also they wanna do it fast, like, start new char today after dinner, be finished tomorrow before dinner (fits also in the elitism part)

elitism is something i dont need to explain, i hope

heroes, well, if they didnt do it, people would get sick of finding many pugs which arent as good as they are (calling them noobs and saying they suck)
and now they gave us heroes, but now the ones who are very good at the game are doing 2 things: solo farm and/or h/h the whole game, and why?
because they think they are better without people, now that heroes are here

i dont say 7 heroes can make the game more alive, but the only thing to let people create pugs is... removing heroes, however, now that heroes are the only ones making those "elitism" people happy (as they dont need to join "noobs" ) people will leave if they cant use em anymore

so at the start heroes were used as something fun, but nowadays they are used as super players to complete everything faster than when having people, where you gotta make plans and strategies, and you gotta find pugs, as heroes can walk, attack, not attack and use any skill you want em to use

so as for 7 hero party (please dont make this the subject): it wont destroy pugs, cuz thats what heroes have done once people found out they could use em to complete everything, whether its 3 heroes and 4 henchies or 7 heroes in a team (in elite places like fow, uw and doa, they have solo builds), they always have an excuse NOT to join any pugs anymore

but remember: the community makes the game, and in this case they just use heroes to complete their HoM and such

titles? nah, those were invented to have some more time consuming happenings in GW

PS. i dont wanna make it another 7 hero party topic, i just used this as example to explain how pugs died

oh yea, i saw someone helping a newbie today, it made me feel good, better than any amount of heroes in 1 team can do

last point: why do you think GW2 has no hero or hench? and that they made it solo-able mostly? cuz some want to solo, and they will get bored, cant use h/h, and will make/join pugs (just a few may quit)

galbat0rixx · Sep 26, 2010, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Elitism is a terrible excuse for lack of PvP success.

I whole-heartedly disagree with that. Elitism puts people off even wanting to do PvP, and unfortunately nowadays some of the most popular PvP areas are very elitist, hence people really don't get much opprtunity to even start.

Mashiyu · Sep 26, 2010, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Besides all the factors which killed pugging (and I agree with most of the posts here) you oversee one thing which really helps to keep PuGs alive: the Zaishen Missions.

While questing/bringing a character through a campaign I hardly ever join a PuG (if I do I'm usually disappointed [some just leave during a mission after capping a skill]) - but for zaishen missions I often join pugs and most of them are OK. The same goes for AB - normally I don't even bother to visit the AB outpost, but when it's Zaishen Battle I KNOW that people will be there (I don't know how the situation in "real" PvP is)

I personally miss some kind of "Zaishen Vanquish" - I don't like vanquishing alone and even in a guild it's problematic to find people who need that specific area too. And it would make it easier to find PuGs for vanquishing as well.

Chocobo1 · Sep 26, 2010, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Dunno why everyone thinks that only they go through the Elitism bullshit in PvP. We all dealt with it, some of us just didn't give up when we came up against the first bump in the road. And obviously a lot of you did.

Anyways I love how this guy just remade the topic 3x and eventually the mods were just whatever. Good message to everyone.

Errant Venture · Sep 26, 2010, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

I sure think so. I think titles enabled players to discriminate and lock each other out of PvP, and even PvE [see: Elitism]. From requiring a champion title for GvG to summoning stones for UW/FoW, titles have killed the spirit of playing with each other for the remainder of the game's life cycle.

What're your thoughts on titles? Do you want them to exist in Guild Wars 2?

Note: Be careful not to flame!

Pugging died in GWs because heroes are more effective than your average PUG

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Sep 26, 2010, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Errant Venture

Pugging died in GWs because heroes are more effective than your average PUG

i do have something to say about that

"heroes are more effective"
i agree, but also disagree, as you can have a group with people being better than heroes, not talking about spiritspam etc, just about the way everyone knows what they're doing
but then again, you can control heroes, just not for 100%, like 3 heroes at the same time, while 3 people can move and use skills at the same time

it is true, in the way that "effective" means that they do what 1 player wants em to do

Errant Venture · Sep 26, 2010, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

i do have something to say about that

"heroes are more effective"
i agree, but also disagree, as you can have a group with people being better than heroes, not talking about spiritspam etc, just about the way everyone knows what they're doing
but then again, you can control heroes, just not for 100%, like 3 heroes at the same time, while 3 people can move and use skills at the same time

it is true, in the way that "effective" means that they do what 1 player wants em to do

A group of experienced players who know what they're doing will always be better than heroway. H/H will always be better than PUGs (i'm excluding endgame areas such as DoA/UW but the pugs there are still horrifying as well).

Sirius Bsns · Sep 26, 2010, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Wow! I'm pleased by the amount of interesting input everyone's made thus far!

Don't get me wrong here, titles are a reward mechanism for players to strive and achieve, and to keep going. The big problem though [as I've already highlighted in the OP] is that players lock each other out by demanding pre-existing titles, which makes the game unplayable for new comers, and even some players who just never got around to certain areas of the game. Sure it's understandable that everybody wants to win, it's only natural and logically sound that we do. But when it comes at the heavy price of negating play for others, it becomes the perfect recipe for game-death over time.

I have rank 3 hero [almost on two accounts now], but I've hardly like playing HA or GvG simply because a lot of the people there just take the issue of titles way too overboard. They're filled with so much discrimination and spite that it completely repelled me from pursuing gameplay there. That, and the thought of having to assemble teams also played a contributing factor. That's why I like Random Arenas more, because it's a click enter 'n' go, and things are often different per match. I'm sure many other players have been similarly impacted by rank-discrimination as well. For heaven's sake even PvE is using some form of discrimination, preventing the newer players from joining! It's not right to generalize and say that all non-ranked or non-accomplished players are "retarded". There are players that're good, but just never got around to HAing, GvGing, or have taken a very long break and fell behind on the whole PvE farming thing.

Anyhow, the bottom line is: though titles were added to give players something to strive for, they've taken it far south and beyond the scope of positive gaming. In GW2: I'm hoping that, at the very least, titles get introduced way later in the game like they did with GW1. That way, GW2 can be an awesome gaming experience like GW1 was in it's early years.

Again, many thanks to all of you for all your inputs!